10-Aug-97Note: it is a general Troubled Times policy to change the names of IRC participants to screen names and remove personal discussions that occurred during the chat in the interests of privacy.
NORSEMAN: Viola is getting a coffee
SPOT: Gooooood Morning Vietnam!!!!!
VIOLA: I'm glad I took that approach to only post to the Weather Watch truly abnormal weather. It would be too large otherwise, and the point missed, with too much detail.
NORSEMAN: Right
VIOLA: This way, the fact that there is only 1/2 page in 95, a page in 96, and already a page 1/2 through 97 shows the trend right there. Likewise, on Quake Watch, only those over 8.0 and volcano that were NEVER active or other such abnormal trends, like the great number of volcanoes now, versus the average spouting in the past. I have a feeling about quakes lately, that there are going to be some that are very unusual, domino effect, world wide effect!
NORSEMAN: Perhaps something will happen
VIOLA: I think the number of deep quakes indicates that plate movement is more than just adjustments. We haven't had any big quakes lately, since Scallions 4 Quake Scenario. That year, 1995 late and 1996, there were 3 big ones 8.0 or so. I have a feeling that the deep plates are snugged against each other, can't move now, and this will mean that when we start having big quakes, 8.0 or so, that this will ripple through MORE plates, and thus worldwide quakes! My feeling and thoughts.
SPOT: Very logical theory you have there, and I think you are right.
NORSEMAN: Yup I think that it's a good theory too
VIOLA: Think about log jams in a river. When all the logs are freely floating, any one log moving may bump a few others, that's all. But if all the logs are jammed against each other, they ALL move at once! Of course, they are all touching now, but the exponential rise in deep quakes shows that they are on the move!
SPOT: Like Jell-O. The whole plate will shake.
NORSEMAN: Oooh.. that's bad.
VIOLA: Any situation like this, where the movement is in a direction OTHER that the general adjustments of before, when they were just trying to relieve pressure, will result in 1) first small changes, 2) then a stall as the movement becomes blocked 3) then a BIG break in the blockage!
SPOT: Correct!
VIOLA: After a PS, the plates are probably just adjusting, relieving pressure here and there, NOT much actual movement.
SPOT: Then the domino effect.
VIOLA: But now, why are they on the move, deep quakes increasing so much?
VIOLA: Swirling around of the Earth's core, but also, maybe trying to already adjust to the big guy coming in!
NORSEMAN: The big guy?
SPOT: Norseman, the 12th. I heard something about the planets (7) lining up. That may have a small effect.
NORSEMAN: Don't know about that, about the lining up of the planets.
VIOLA: That recent posting on the TT list serve, from a geologist, saying there ARE no quakes over 9.6. Wrong, as Richter takes into account the area affected, and in a whole Earth quake THAT is what raises the Richer to 15.
NORSEMAN: About the planets, I have some doubts about that, just as with solar flares causing weather changes.
VIOLA: On May 5, 2000, the planets will all be in a line, out from the Sun. This happens now and then, and some thing THIS is what the millennium warnings are all about. However, the Z's have said not so, that there will be almost no effect.
NORSEMAN: But perhaps or maybe there is something we don't know yet about geology.
SPOT: I have doubts too, but the gravitational fields may add to what the 12th is doing to us.
VIOLA: The Z's pointed out that 99.99999% or so of the gravitational pull is from the Sun, always, so why should a line up matter.
NORSEMAN: Right
SPOT: Don't know, just heard they were.
VIOLA: Also debunked that theory about the polar ice causing pole shifts, and land masses are more lopsided at any given point in time, and THIS does not cause the heaviest land mass to shift to the equator! Spot, they ARE lining up, but this does not cause a problem, per se.
SPOT: OK.
NORSEMAN: I think that the 12th is causing this
SPOT: The hydro shed is coming along. My friend and I finished the floor night before last.
VIOLA: Spot, you're going to have that hydro shed in the winter too, right?
SPOT: Yes mam, that is one of the main reasons it is taking so long. It has to be ready for sub-zero temps.
VIOLA: I wonder where the list serve discussion is leading, the no-parasite discussion.
SPOT: I am lining the inside of the hydro shed with Space blankets for 100% light reflection.
VIOLA: Obviously, one should reduce the parasites wherever possible. However, this can never be eliminated.
NORSEMAN: Agree. especially after the Shift
SPOT: I like that urine discussion..
VIOLA: Bottom line, some foods can be eaten raw, like fruit and vegies, as the parasites aren't in the food itself. Others, like meat, CAN be full of bacteria and worms, etc., and should be cooked. My thoughts.
VIOLA: Spot, WOW!
VIOLA: You're truly a hydro TEAM member!
NORSEMAN: Space blankets are good idea. Space blankets are silver looking right?
VIOLA: If folks are doing indoor gardening, due to the volcanic ash causing lead poisoning of the soil outside, then they will need to use all the nutrients they can get their hands on. Human waste is one such nutrient.
SPOT: $2.39 each. they cover a 6 X 8 foot area each..
VIOLA: Recycling will be the word.
NORSEMAN: Yup, recycling. Sure about that
SPOT: The urine discussion puts a whole new meaning on the words "Pee pot".
NORSEMAN: :)
SPOT: Your pee pot, my pee pot, their pee pot.
VIOLA: Spot, what you're doing on the hydro shed could be written up and included in an educational outlet.
NORSEMAN: Agree, with you Nancy. I think that I will start with worms, bugs later on this year
VIOLA: Sojourner, I'd like to ask as a newcomer to TT list serve, what your first impressions were? We let folks just subscribe themselves, and I suspect many have preconceptions and do NOT find what they expected. I'm curious as to what your preconceptions were, and what you found was actually taking place. Spot, you too! When you first joined, what was different? I won't ask Norseman, as he was there at the very beginning.
NORSEMAN: Yup.
SPOT: Honestly? I found "home".
NORSEMAN: I am an oldy :)))
SOJOURNER: Viola: My first impressions. Hmm. What I liked and I still like is that you are a group talking about real world solutions to a possible event in the future.
VIOLA: I think our list serve is run in a very democratic manner, what many might call chaos, but it is not without rules or procedures.
SPOT: Something I was looking for and working for all my life.
VIOLA: Ah! Not pie in the sky as they say, theoretical.
VIOLA: I'm amazed at the number of people who want to talk about such nebulous subjects, space travel faster than light, etc. They home is about to go on fire, and they are talking about hypotheticals!
SPOT: Because they know, but don't know that they know.
VIOLA: Durandal, we're discussing first impressions on TT list serve.
NORSEMAN: Viola: yup.
VIOLA: What was yours? Did it meet what you expected to find? What did you THINK you would find going on the list serve, and what ACTUALLY was going on?
SOJOURNER: Viola: Are you asking me?
VIOLA: Sojourner, yes, as you answered about what you LIKE, but not what you expected. Asking Durandal and Spot too.
SPOT: When I was a kid and younger man, I would do things because I knew I would have to do them some day. This is someday..
VIOLA: What shocked you about the list serve and the way we operate, if anything. What were your preconceptions and what was a surprise.
SPOT: I have trained all my life for this.
SOJOURNER: Viola: what I expected - discussion about UFO's, paranormal phenomenon.
SPOT: Therefore, I found home.
VIOLA: Ah! and the discussion was about things like how to recycle urine :-).
SPOT: Pee Pee :-)
VIOLA: Spot, is this what you EXPECTED to find, or were you surprised?
NORSEMAN: :))
SOJOURNER: Viola: what I found actually going on the list - what I expected plus a lot of interesting practical stuff in case of ...
SPOT: I was impressed that I FOUND what I was searching for.
DURANDAL: My feelings are I got what I signed up for. I have a sense that things are going to be very dicey one way or another and I for one do not have the skill set to survive. Hence I was and am looking for various solutions to apply later on. All the list has been amazing in scope and talent. I frankly end up rather intimidated from how knowledgeable so many people are
VIOLA: Sojourner, but you talk to Atom and perhaps knew what to expect.
SPOT: It is what I expected.
VIOLA: Durandal, that has continued to surprise me too, that the talent spread is so large and the talent base so HUGE.
NORSEMAN: That's good to hear Spot.
SPOT: Thank you..
VIOLA: We have so many people I would term at the genius level of IQ, and the integrity is amazing, and the talents are breathtaking.
SOJOURNER: Viola, yes, this could be true. But still. You know, I have been reading books on UFOs long time before I even knew Atom.
NORSEMAN: Viola: agree.
SPOT: My daughter said she saw a UFO the other night here.
VIOLA: We have at least two artists, for instance, that can create computer graphics that are terrific! I don't include myself, more a technician here, or Atom, as we CAN put them up but it is more a mechanical function.
NORSEMAN: Interesting.. maybe they came for you.
VIOLA: Sojourner, Atom said you were a soul mate to us, yes :-).
SPOT: Peek-a-boo, we see you!
VIOLA: When we got into the radio discussion, there was Long-Bow and friends going at it leaving the rest of us breathless! They really know their stuff!
SPOT: Amazing what knowledge they have!
NORSEMAN: Yes, they do. I don't know things about Ham radios etc..
SOJOURNER: Viola, true. I was always interested in these subjects. Internet is a great tool for further exploring them.
VIOLA: One of our members is a musician and I even have shorts of his stuff on the TT web site, he's SO talented. And he's doing hydroponics! Carrie is a nurse.
DURANDAL: currently the algae discussion is fascinating. I did not give kelp and algae much thought before hand.
VIOLA: Spot is a steam engine specialist.
SPOT: I don't know about that :-)
VIOLA: Several of us, including myself, all work in the computer field, all with web sites too!
SPOT: Passions.
VIOLA: Norseman and another are in the UFO field, both known there now.
DURANDAL: Spot I have a question about your generator. would it be feasible to change your generator from diesel to wind power at a later date?
NORSEMAN: I'm not that known yet, but I probably will be.
VIOLA: Shadow and I are both writing books.
SPOT: Yes, and already discussing it with a friend..
DURANDAL: Cool keep us updated.
SPOT: We have to go back and get specifics on props and such.
VIOLA: I suspect that as 2003 approaches, that we will have really innovative solutions on how to take the normal trash that is at hand and make a real functioning survival site! This is my goal.
SPOT: Converting my diesel generator to wind power. Mine too..
VIOLA: I can't tell you how thrilled I was that Vitamin C production is finally under discussion, a list serve member locating a group out there that actually KNOWS how to do this! Getting down to the nitty gritty as they say.
SPOT: I want also make sure we can eat as well.
NORSEMAN: Yup
SPOT: Back to basics.
VIOLA: Look at the earthworm and algae topics! Here's things that are high protein, easy to grow, grow fast, and meet so many nutritional needs!
SPOT: If you can't eat, you're no good to yourself or others.
VIOLA: Cripes, if someone had worms and algae and mushrooms, they could maybe live!
NORSEMAN: Yup.
SPOT: And have fun with the right kind of mushrooms! :-) Just kidding..
DURANDAL: Yea
VIOLA: We are accustomed to bright sunlight production, eating meat on the hoof, and fruits and vegetables and grains imported from other countries in many cases.
NORSEMAN: Agree with you Clipper, food is important..
VIOLA: This will change, and its just a matter of identifying the substitute food stuffs and how to process and cook them.
SPOT: That reminds me, I am picking up two billy goats today.
VIOLA: Recipes will be VERY important part of this process, educating the public!
NORSEMAN: Right
SPOT: And books and technology for the future.
VIOLA: Spot! Goats! My sister used to keep them as she and her husband didn't want to mow the lawn! They go along swell! However, there was this or that weed in the yard that they didn't want to eat, sticking up, so the yard looked a little weird.
SPOT: That is one reason we are getting them, too busy to mow grass. A two-fold purpose!
NORSEMAN: They give milk, and one can eat goat meat.
VIOLA: There was an article in the papers here recently about goats for hire to eat down brush. They even eat poison oak! This really surprised me.
SPOT: Billy goats don't give milk. Willfully :-)
NORSEMAN: Billy?
SPOT: Male
VIOLA: Goat milk cheese is a favorite of some.
NORSEMAN: Male goats, but you can eat their meat if you need too
VIOLA: But they have a strong smell, goats do, Just comes with the territory.
SPOT: Yes on both.
DURANDAL: What types of livestock would be practical to try to keep and feed before and after the pole shift? Goats, Horses for transportation but they may be hard to feed. Lambs for wool and possibly meat.
SPOT: My neighbor raises Angora goats.
VIOLA: My sister also kept bees, and would send me honey combs now and then.
SPOT: You can eat all of the above.
NORSEMAN: Yes, lambs for wool, meat and cheese.
VIOLA: Then they moved to the city and put the bee hive on the roof! They collected from the neighborhood, the bees did, and honey production did not cease!
SPOT: We used to get wild bee honey when I was a kid.
VIOLA: Durandal, we had a spate of discussion on the list serve about that in the past, and goats, sheep, rabbits, and even lamas were candidates.
SPOT: Daaaaady!
NORSEMAN: Honey is good source of sugar, and from what I known it's good for the lungs etc.
DURANDAL: Yea your right
NORSEMAN: Yup
VIOLA: Apparently lamas are used to sparse living conditions, give milk and meat, and fur can be used for cloth production, and they are also beasts of burden, pack animals.
SPOT: See that part about honey and urine?
VIOLA: Spot, not yet. I'm a bit behind on my list serve processing, also need to get into a web wrapping frenzy.
VIOLA: A trend I've noted lately on the list serve is that we're moving quite naturally from DISCUSSING solutions sets into trying them out!
VIOLA: The TEAM thing, where many topics that were only posting articles or general education about this or that, now have a TEAM in the Team section that are posting their own experiences with the solution set.
SPOT: Yes, discussing the problems and then finding the solution sets.
VIOLA: I think this will grow! Over the next couple years, a real good base of experience. We can have the "ask spot" question queue, where folks can come with their personal questions on the solution, etc.
SPOT: I have often thought about how much more knowledge we will have in a year or two.
VIOLA: This will really encourage folks to try it themselves, seeing folks posting their early attempts, learning curve, etc.
SPOT: That cute, "ask Spot" :-)
VIOLA: They will be less intimidated to try, seeing that they will not so much be talking to experts as real human beings.
SPOT: And pictures! I am about ready to send a few more pic's in on the shed.
VIOLA: The step after this, after the TEAMs working on real hands-on attempts with the solution sets, will be full blown prototype sites.
NORSEMAN: Scanned pictures
SPOT: Yes. You bet!
VIOLA: Working on this or that solution, as a stand alone, will always be ongoing, but the full blown prototype sites will become increasingly important as 2003 looms ahead.
NORSEMAN: a good thing to have at home, a scanner.. We have one at home.
NORSEMAN: Agree with you Nancy
SPOT: Like, this is how 12 volt works, this is what an algae tanks looks like.
VIOLA: For instance, one might be able to process and eat worms, another off the grid due to their windmill and renewable battery system, yet another growing hydroponics year round with lighting that cannot shatter, bulb replacement they can do themselves, etc.
SPOT: I don't have my scanner yet, but my friend does.
VIOLA: BUT, no one is putting all this together and finding out what the problems will be when they do! This will be what the full blown prototype systems will explore, what problems pop up when someone actually tries to live like that!
SPOT: There will be lots of folks building small projects and not telling us.
NORSEMAN: Yes, I think so too
SPOT: Yes, should be interesting to see fresh tomatoes at minus 40 degrees.
VIOLA: Will there be vitamin deficiencies? Will the lack of intense light create depression? Will the folks living at the survival site get uncontrollable urges to eat leather? (just kidding)
NORSEMAN: And there are more groups preparing. Not like the way TT is, but sort of.
VIOLA: We need to have a year or so of this kind of experimentation before 2003.
SPOT: Yes on the lack of light depression, we deal with that here already.
VIOLA: The lighting we use for hydroponics needs to be like daylight. If we get that into place, they light deficiency depression will NOT occur!
SPOT: Yes, daylight.
VIOLA: Kill two problems with one solution set.
SPOT: And not wasted on any absorption any where.
CARRIE: What about rock light? Are there certain geological formations that provide light?
SPOT: Yes, but hard to find.
VIOLA: This is one of my areas of concern, Vitamin C production from scratch as scurvy kills, and light bulbs that don't break and produce artificial sunlight.
VIOLA: Carrie, this is so theoretical, no? Perhaps dim light so one can grope around, but as bright as sunlight? Probably never!
CARRIE: However, it is the UV content of sunlight that is critical in the formation of Vitamin C
SPOT: As long as you have white light, you have artificial daylight.
CARRIE: No, Viola. I remember reading about them when I studied geology 20+ years ago.
VIOLA: When the issue of light bulbs first came up, I got very interested in arc lamps used at the turn of the century.
NORSEMAN: Agree. But daylight is more then light alone, know what I mean.
VIOLA: In fact, the streets of London were as bright as day, due to arc lamps, and carbon tips are pretty easy to produce. I've wondered if pencil leads might even work! They are so plentiful!
SPOT: Me too, and started to discuss with a friend on the pencils!
NORSEMAN: Yes they are, pencils.
VIOLA: Granted no one is doing much with carbon tip arc lamps today, as there are so many substitutes.
SPOT: A few things have to be in place before I can experiment with pencils.
VIOLA: However, I think this is a real possibility for a solution, if someone would take it up and work the kinks out of it.
NORSEMAN: Yup
VIOLA: Arc lamps have 1) non breakable bulbs, as they use just the carbon tips open to the air, 2) produce sunlight equivalent.
SPOT: And heat.
VIOLA: I have a gut feeling that the solutions we will need are right at hand, its just that we need to continue to be creative and resourceful, not closed minded. We're certainly that! Look at the topics under discussion! Outhouses, urine recycling, eating worms :-).
NORSEMAN: Agree. I also will look for more info.
SPOT: No closed minds here.
VIOLA: No topic is rejected out of hand, that's for sure!
SPOT: All from the same building!! :-)
CARRIE: About the urine. I'm not going to touch that one!
NORSEMAN: I understand Carrie.
SPOT: I was hoping you would comment on urine.
VIOLA: Carrie, not into bedpan work, eh? (just kidding)
CARRIE: Urine, though sterile, can contain high levels of ammonia and other concentrated that the body GOT RID OF. Reintroducing them back can be hazardous.
SPOT: When I read about urine, I thought, I wonder what Carrie thinks of this?
VIOLA: What's the deal with urine anyway? I didn't get time to read those postings yet. What, somebody suggested we drink our urine?
NORSEMAN: Carrie: Yes, you might be right
SPOT: Urine for its medicinal purposes.
CARRIE: Someone sent in a post about the use of urine in treating diseases, etc. Long quote from some alternative health zine
NORSEMAN: some people drink it,, but I AIN'T one of them
VIOLA: Oh, medicinal. One needs to know what they are doing. Wasn't this an old practice, a cure for certain diseases in centuries past?
CARRIE: There could be a lot of merit to it. however, as a licensed medical practitioner, I will not sanction it.
SPOT: So the article says. I would be willing to try it.
VIOLA: Well, we post solutions on TT that are not necessary in concurrence with each other. That's OK. Folks can pick and choose, more solutions are better than a lean solution set, my thoughts.
SPOT: AFTER I kiss my wife good morning.
VIOLA: I have the feeling that approaching 2003, many will print off our web pages or pick up the hard copy version of TT, and keep this handy.
NORSEMAN: Agree.
SPOT: Yes
VIOLA: Then, when the pole shift happens and they are devastated, they will use this as a reference!
CARRIE: If they can keep their wits about them.
SPOT: That is our plan, is it not?
NORSEMAN: I think you're right about that Viola
VIOLA: So, we should remember that many will not have supplies, be stuck with what they can dig out of the rubble. This may be their only treatment! Urine may addressed a problem making them heart sick.
NORSEMAN: Could be.
SPOT: Then we could say "read this or urine for a lot of trouble" Could not resist..
VIOLA: As we approach 2003, we may be pulling together solutions into solutions sets, things that go together. Just occurred to me why I use that phrase so often, solution sets!
SPOT: Sets of solutions.
VIOLA: Spot, laugh of the day :-).
NORSEMAN: :)
SPOT: Thank you.
VIOLA: Yes, we're doing that somewhat on TT with the "views" - high tech, homeless, settlement. However, there may be many version of settlement.
SPOT: Yes, sub-sets and sub-solutions.
VIOLA: Many version of homeless too! Say homeless in the city, in Africa, in Alaska, all would be different!
SPOT: Good topic!
CARRIE: About the urine being included in TT, I would put a disclaimer stating that you will assume no responsibility for any damage that may occur.
NORSEMAN: Think you're right, Carrie
SPOT: Darn good idea.
CARRIE: Since TT is a "business" it is liable for any damages that may occur if there is no such disclaimer.
NORSEMAN: Certain reactions could occur, there are people who can't stand certain kind of ....
VIOLA: Star, I think when we credit the source, this is not taken as OUR statement, just that we are quoting a source.
CARRIE: "I read about it in TT, so I drank my pee. Why am I in ICU?"
VIOLA: The newspapers don't get sued when they print an article quoting some opinion, if others follow that opinion.
CARRIE: OK
VIOLA: TT Inc. is a business, but the TT list serve is NOT. Its a discussion group.
NORSEMAN: Agree. The two are separate entities
VIOLA: We do say that the TT members own their own words, in the Membership pages, and this is true for any quoted posting or article too.
SPOT: They could say the same thing about worms. I ate a worm and got sick.
VIOLA: Each person writes what they are comfortable with saying. Each member is NOT responsible for what others write.
NORSEMAN: Right
VIOLA: Re urine, we're not saying that folks should TRY this, what we're saying is that in the past this was considered a solution! This is reporting, not advising.
NORSEMAN: Agree.
VIOLA: Spot, we don't say go eat a worm! We say that earthworms have 82% protein, grow in garbage, and should be considered a food source.
CARRIE: Viola: the post goes into detail about suggested dosages and building up a tolerance level in the bod.
VIOLA: Do those who report that chickens have high protein value get sued by someone who ate a chicken raw, feathers and all?
SPOT: Yes, read that.
VIOLA: They would get tossed out of court!
NORSEMAN: I know that a research institute in my country did some kind of research some time ago about eating certain kind of insects.
CARRIE: Eat raw chickens! Eat raw worms! Drink raw piss! (grin)
SPOT: Actually, I think folks will be too busy to drag up something like that.
VIOLA: Carrie, but the posting has an author, right? THIS is the person who gets heat in this matter, not someone who quotes.
VIOLA: Carrie, just don't read TT on an empty stomach!
CARRIE: Quoted from a zine (grin)
SPOT: :-)
VIOLA: Anybody can sue anybody else on any matter, and do. Harassment suits are probably the most common. However, they get tossed out of court.
VIOLA: The only thing they can claim is that our talk about a pole shift gave them a heart attack. I don't think this would fly either, as others are saying all manner of similar things. We're not assertive, going door to door, etc., so anyone reading our site is coming TO use, and that's where the difference lies.
SPOT: Or tripped on the computer cable.
CARRIE: Chances are they were a heart attack waiting to happen anyway!
NORSEMAN: Agree. Viola
SPOT: Did them a favor.
CARRIE: Conditions that create heart attacks do not occur suddenly! Heart disease is a long drawn-out process, stretching over years.
CARRIE: That's why kids don't have heart attacks.
SPOT: Hmmm.
NORSEMAN: Yes, stress, etc, problems with fat, or their diet isn't that healthy
SPOT: Or smoke too much:-)
NORSEMAN: or their intake of cholesterol is to high
CARRIE: i.e., a person spends 76 years eating cholesterol--laden goodies. Clogs up his left coronary artery so that it is 90% occluded. He logs on and reads TT. Heart attack! Chances are it was the donut that he was eating while reading TT that sent him over the edge.
VIOLA: This was a good chat, kind of an overview of where TT has been, has grown to, and is moving toward!
SPOT: Yes, a very good chat.
VIOLA: It has certainly been a survivor!
NORSEMAN: Yep. it was a good chat.
VIOLA: Right now, the TT pages are growing rapidly, but maybe in the future the emphasis will be on actual prototype use of the solutions, NOT just increasing the TT pages.
SPOT: Over the last six months, we had no idea where we were going, as we don't know for sure about the next six months. As long as we keep our wits about us, it will all work out.
VIOLA: Right now TT is in the chaotic growth phase, where new topics are popping up all the time. Many new topics have almost nothing to them ,but become substantial over time. We are getting the structure up now, and guiding the structure.
NORSEMAN: Yup
VIOLA: Once that is in place, delegation to groups that can work the topics effectively may take place.
CARRIE: Once the structure is compete, everything else will fall in place.
NORSEMAN: Right
SPOT: Yep
VIOLA: For instance, radio internet. I could see Long-Bow and company running that TOPIC, such that they just send me updates and I pop them in there. The future will bring lots of changes. Companies may be bankrupt, or be waiting on disaster funds that don't come, insurance companies that go belly up. A single death in the family can change the parameters.
CARRIE: There are always ways to survive! Desert survival training taught me that!
SPOT: Will not be a pretty picture.
VIOLA: A disaster in the locale that forces folks to move.
VIOLA: These are wild cards and no one knows what they will be! Starvation in countries is already showing up. Look at Korea!
NORSEMAN: Right. And China.
SPOT: all right Norse!
VIOLA: Shocking to see this there, we are so used to Africa, the sub-Sahara and stick thin children.
VIOLA: The 3 years of crop shortage the Z's predicted are 2000 to 2003 - summer of 2000, 2001, 2002 and into the winters of these. We're now in the summer of 1997!
SPOT: Therefore hydroponics BETTER be in place. Priorities.
VIOLA: With crop shortages, we will soon be hearing about starvation like this and NO food coming from other countries, UN handouts, etc.
NORSEMAN: Right
SPOT: Information on hydroponics and working solutions is what I am talking about.
VIOLA: We're not there yet, but with our store of food stuffs in the US dropping steadily, this will be the next thing to expect.
SPOT: And prices on the rise because of it.
VIOLA: The reaction to all this will be for folks to garden more, and this will be a good thing.
SPOT: Yes
CARRIE: Yes!
VIOLA: Then, if the outdoor weather gets more erratic, indoor gardening will be popular. This also is for the good.
CARRIE: People will be going back to the land
SPOT: Many will starve or steal first.
NORSEMAN: Right, about the gardening.
VIOLA: In talking about bad publicity, folks saying TT caused them to have a heart attack or whatever, we can point to our solution sets. They are practical already!
SPOT: As you can see, one thing leads to the next.
VIOLA: Pointing the finger is like saying the doctor caused an illness by talking about the possibility! :-)
SPOT: Well ..
CARRIE: Can't tell you how many times I have heard that one! (grin)
SPOT: That can happen.
NORSEMAN: :)
CARRIE: It is all part of denial
VIOLA: I think the welfare classes in the cities, those dependent on handouts, will see more riots, as their handouts may be impacted if things really get bad.
NORSEMAN: Right.
CARRIE: Yeah, that's right, lady! That doctor gave you cancer of the ovaries!
SPOT: The city is not a good place to be.
VIOLA: Old folks will just quietly die in their homes. More babies dying and quietly being buried. But adults, those used to a better life, will riot.
CARRIE: Welfare has already been impacted, big time!
SPOT: Talking about subliminal messages
CARRIE: Yes! Subliminal messages are far more effective in reaching people!
SPOT: Not doctors in particular.
VIOLA: Carrie, that may be a personal adjustment to tragedy, but it doesn't fly in the courts.
NORSEMAN: Right about the subliminal messages
SPOT: Yes, seed planting.
CARRIE: Of course not! If it did, every doc in the world would have been sued 1000 times over!
VIOLA: Carrie, the homeless population will increase like crazy in the US, due to the changes in welfare laws.
SPOT: most have from what I've heard.
CARRIE: It is already happening.
VIOLA: Workfare, where able bodied folk can be on welfare for a couple years, then MUST be working or get cut off.
CARRIE: But look at these people, they are used to handouts. They don't know how to survive. They have never been taught and most of them don't want to learn.
VIOLA: Their children will be the first hit, and then maybe the authorities will take the kids away and let the adults become homeless. How else will they deal with that?
SPOT: We have homeless here in our town. Can you imagine being homeless at - 40 degrees?
NORSEMAN: Cold
CARRIE: Brrrr How do they cope, Spot?
NORSEMAN: -40 degrees Fahrenheit
SPOT: Not sure, they always come back.
CARRIE: Maybe they could teach us something, Spot.
SPOT: 40 degrees below zero F.
VIOLA: Carrie, for sure, most in the welfare class will die homeless, not adjust.
VIOLA: In the past, folks in these situations died, did not live to have many children and swell the welfare class.
VIOLA: We have created a monster in this regard, large numbers of folks with no ability to be self sustaining.
SPOT: I should interview a homeless person and ask how they survive. We may learn something.
NORSEMAN: It might be an idea
VIOLA: This is also true of those who are sustained due to modern medicine. Severely diabetic, etc. they will not live a day after the pole shift.
CARRIE: Tell me about it, Viola! I take care of these "monsters" day in and day out!
VIOLA: The pictures of Kobe after the last quake showed folks just sitting on the curb, waiting to be rescued!
CARRIE: Demented! Contracted!
VIOLA: We will see this a lot, folks dulled into depression, giving up, quietly dying.
SPOT: We see this already.
SPOT: Most are homeless because they gave up.
CARRIE: Before and after the pole shift. We need to focus on survival after the PS. Many people. will die by disease, suicide, murder, etc.
VIOLA: The world ahead of 2003 may shape in this way - more religious nuts, more cults, more riots, more folks moving into rural survival settings, forming groups, more self sustenance, more death by starvation and illness untreated, etc.
CARRIE: The best we can do is give a blueprint for survival. We don't have centuries to build underground facilities and adapt genetically like the Zetas did.
VIOLA: I don't think the homeless can teach us anything, as they basically are just garbage picking and looking for handouts.
CARRIE: Except those that survive in -40 degrees!
VIOLA: The garbage will get lean, and the competition fierce, after the PS.
SPOT: Thanks, really did not want to do that any way.
VIOLA: Plus, they get ill a lot, chronic diarrhea, etc.
CARRIE: How do they do it? What do they wear? What do they eat?
VIOLA: I remember seeing a homeless person on the streets in New York City once, had dried diarrhea on his legs.
NORSEMAN: Viola: right, not eating the right things, getting infections
VIOLA: They sleep wherever, and get robbed or raped when they do by the other homeless. Not a life to pattern after! My thoughts.
CARRIE: Chances are he also had maggots in his ass!
SPOT: Ewww!
NORSEMAN: Eww
CARRIE: Not unusual!
SPOT: We concur.
VIOLA: Carrie, they pick garbage!
CARRIE: But they survive!
VIOLA: They wear what folks throw out, or they buy this for a dollar from places like Salvation Army or Good Will, that take toss-outs from folks and put it on racks, cheap sales.
CARRIE: There won't be any garbage to pick after post-pole shift
SPOT: We have some that have been here for years with no home at all.
VIOLA: These facilities will disappear during the cataclysms. Carrie, they die young and like flies! They DON'T survive. They get heart disease or malnutrition.
VIOLA: There was a story about a homeless guy here who wrapped himself in plastic sheeting a lot, for whatever reason.
CARRIE: I know, but I care for them once they get past the ER. I work in critical care medicine, so I know how sick they are!
VIOLA: They found him dead, no obvious reason for death, a young man around 30 or so I think.
CARRIE: But they get better, go back out, then come back in. I think the key is self-sufficiency!
NORSEMAN: Agree. Carrie
CARRIE: There is a difference between depending on throw-outs vs. growing one's own!
NORSEMAN: Right
CARRIE: Grandma grew her own veggies and raised her own cattle in the Arizona desert. Thus, she was able to care for 8 kids by herself.
SPOT: A cow is on our list of priorities. Milk cow.
CARRIE: She used adobe (mud) to build onto her house. Still standing!
NORSEMAN: But will there be cows after the pole shift? I doubt it..
SPOT: Animals are for the kids to get used to. I had my fill when I was younger.
CARRIE: We don't know for sure what our resources will be. We can only guess, at this point.
CARRIE: That is why the Zeta input is so critical as we get closer! They can better tell what parts of the planet are going to be affected and how.
SPOT: I would assume they already know. They can't tell us?
CARRIE: What good does it do to build a site and it gets wiped out?! i.e., I learned desert survival. I am pretty handy with a cactus! Doesn't mean a keep a store of cacti somewhere. But I know where they are, just in case I need one. (grin)
SPOT: I have thought about some of the myths and practices of today and how they came about.
SPOT: What will we do to the future generations.
CARRIE: Perhaps instead of building a site, we can create one on the web, where people can visually see the solutions. Most people will not be able to visit a prototype site.
SPOT: The books we keep and the technology we save will create what the future is.
NORSEMAN: We have to build one, a real one. and show pictures on the web, etc.
CARRIE: That is the key, Spot. Hanging on to this will be tough. Remember we have had advanced tech in the past, and we lost it in the cataclysms.
SPOT: And live it to prove it works. Yes, my point exactly.
CARRIE: Not real - we don't have time for that. Build an imaginary one on the web - one that people can recreate at their own sites. They can report to us what works and what doesn't.
SPOT: They won't. They won't report.
CARRIE: People always like to bitch about what does not work. We will hear!
SPOT: True. They do love to bitch.
NORSEMAN: But I really think (IMHO) that we have to build a real one
CARRIE: And we will learn from the bitching.
NORSEMAN: Yup
SPOT: We will build a real one.
CARRIE: Excellent! By the way, am revising the first aid section.
CARRIE: There is a lot to do, so it will take me awhile.
SPOT: I will look forward to it Carrie.
VIOLA: OK, what's the difference? A cyber site is theoretical, this is not the same as REAL.
SPOT: Correct.
CARRIE: But if people build it, based on the cyber model, and give us feedback about what works and what doesn't
SPOT: I think we need real.
VIOLA: We're already doing some things with cyber sites, like describing what kind of survival groups there may be, but now it will be time to put our solution sets into practice.
CARRIE: We could have both! But given time and money limitations.
SPOT: We have to build real FIRST.
CARRIE: Give a person a model and let them do the work with their own $$
VIOLA: What is a cyber site? A paper site, so to speak?
SPOT: I have been in construction for many years.
CARRIE: Yes!
VIOLA: We're also doing that with the "views" - high tech, settlement, etc.
SPOT: A real site is not out of reach.
CARRIE: Perhaps, a blueprint of a dome, etc.
NORSEMAN: Viola: a cyber site, is a site on the web.. A virtual one. Right?
SPOT: Yes, with a picture of a real one.
CARRIE: We could consolidate everything into one prototype site on the web.
VIOLA: These are cyber sites in a manner of speaking. If one just looks at the icon buttons, they take shape, in fact, before one's eyes.'
CARRIE: People could see how everything works together.
SPOT: Or add what they want to have at their site only. Based on real modals.
